The ILEETA Learning Lab
The Learning Lab is a series of 60 minute interviews with ILEETA Conference presenters discussing the key teaching point takeaways from their conference presentation. These interviews are packed with great content and created to serve as weekly professional development training for ILEETA members.
The ILEETA Learning Lab
Weapons-Based Grappling - Chris Mandigma
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Chris Mandigma and Kenny Bigbee Jr. will present Weapons-Based Grappling at the 2026 ILEETA Conference & Expo in St. Louis, 16–21 March 2026.
👉 https://www.ileeta.org/conference/
A NOTE FROM THE LEARNING LAB
ILEETA Deputy Executive Director Joe Willis sat down with Chris Mandigma of Tirsia Tactical to discuss Weapons-Based Grappling and why traditional training often leaves a dangerous gap between firearms skills and close-quarters survival.
In this conversation, Chris breaks down the reality that most academies spend minimal time on weapon retention and even less on ground survival with a firearm or edged weapon. When fights go to the ground, officers must be able to retain, access, and deploy their weapons decisively.
This discussion provides value whether you are attending the conference or not. It reframes how combatives, weapon access, and grappling should integrate into modern law enforcement training.
COURSE CONTEXT
Course Title: Weapons-Based Grappling
Instructors: Chris Mandigma & Kenny Bigbee Jr.
Course Length: 3 hours 45 minutes
Event: 2026 ILEETA Conference & Expo
Location: St. Louis, Missouri | 16–21 March 2026
🗓️ Find this course on the conference schedule:
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ABOUT THE CONVERSATION
Weapons-Based Grappling addresses one of the most undertrained realities in policing: what happens when the fight collapses to the ground and weapons are involved.
In this Learning Lab interview, Chris discusses:
- The training gap between firearms qualification and weapon retention
- Why ground survival skills must include weapon access and protection
- Integrating pistol and knife awareness into grappling systems
- The difference between sport grappling and weapons-aware grappling
- Retention principles from standing to grounded positions
- Why decisiveness under pressure matters more than complexity
- Building scalable training programs for agencies with limited mat time
Chris emphasizes that weapon-based encounters are dynamic and chaotic. Officers must be prepared to transition between control, retention, and deployment seamlessly.
This is not about adding more techniques.
It is about building systems that account for weapons in every phase of the fight.
TOPICS DISCUSSED
Weapon retention realities
Ground survival with firearms
Knife awareness in close quarters
Sport vs operational grappling
Standing to ground transitions
Integrating combatives with firearms training
Training decisiveness under pressure
Building scalable agency programs
CONNECT WITH CHRIS MANDIGMA
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/tirsiatactical/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chrismandigma/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@tirsiatraining
Website: https://www.tirsiatactical.com/
Company: Tirsia Tactical
WATCH OR LISTEN
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🎧 Podcast – ILEETA Learning Lab
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Hello and welcome to this special edition of the Alita Learning Lab. My name is Joe Willis, and today I'm here with Chris Mandigma. Now he's coming all the way from Canada to talk to us at the Alita 2026 conference and expo about weapons-based grappling. Now he's working with Kenny Bigby Jr. and they co-teach this class together. But today we've got Chris with us. I think we're going to do a catch-up interview with Kenny in a little while. But for right now, what I really want to talk about with Chris today is what are we going to learn in your class? Kind of talk us through a little bit of how this came to be, and more importantly, what are we going to walk away with?
SPEAKER_01Sure. Thank you, Joe. Thanks for having me. I think to start off with, if I may, last year was our first time at ILEDA, and we we had actually instructed Edge Weapons Countermeasures, which is one of the modules off of the TRICOM system developed by Jared Wahangi, who's our chief instructor. And within the edge weapon countermeasures, that's something that I'm personally quite passionate about when it comes to edge weapons training in relation to law enforcement. And what the reason why we started off with edge weapons last year was first off, it starts off from the stand up position, being able to defend from the stand-up position when an officer is attacked spontaneously, or either they see it and the assailant is attacking them. And then that leads us to this year where because we had introduced it last year, we thought that by bringing in weapons-based grappling, and grappling can be stand up right down a takedown and an on-the-ground. The ground, as we all know, uh especially for uh those who aren't training in, let's say, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, uh, it gets quite messy and uh quite technical and can be very difficult to deal with. It's not something that people are used to. So that's something we really wanted to expose a lot of the agency instructors to uh or officers that are attending, uh, that there is another side to it, and it's it is not as easy to simply deflect or grab a wrist or whatever the technique is when you have a truly dynamic situation with an edge weapon involved. So that's that's what we're really trying to get out, and it's a big educational piece as well. Um, that uh this is not really the martial art, you know, pretty rehearsed techniques. Um, it gets sloppy and ugly really fast.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it you know, I I caught a little bit of your class last year and and just kind of peeked in from the back. I'm actually uh when when we do these sort of really dynamic uh training exercises and evolutions that are uh weapons-based, whether that is uh handgun, rifle, uh edged weapons, whatever it is between two people, uh, that becomes an incredibly dynamic, very fast learning environment where context is everything. Uh closing distance, making distance, it all matters. And so what actually, before I dive too much deeper into that, talk to me a little bit about Tertia and the uh the direction you're coming from, because uh a lot of folks may not be familiar with what that is.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. Um well Tertia Tactical is a training company that that I run, um, I own. I've been teaching law enforcement for over 15 years. I was a former federal uh law enforcement officer up here in Canada and also for uh multiple agencies. Um a couple years ago, I just decided I really want to focus on the company and its expansion and growth. Um, and and the primary reason for that was uh if I'm teaching a program for an academy and they are uh here is the curriculum, uh, we essentially have to sell this Kool-Aid. Uh, I will be honest that I really had a difficult time uh being able to teach certain lessons that I wasn't confident in would be in the best interest of officer safety. Uh so that was uh that pretty much went against me in trying to uh teach certain things. And one of the biggest ones was edge weapons. Um, while certain technical applications when it comes to knife defense might be applicable, and uh I have a Japanese jujitsu background, there was also a lot of question of, but that's not the way that is actually happening right now. Um, in terms of you don't see a person coming in with a high line thrust and me being able to parry, do a wrist turn, and then do a takedown off of that. Um, and if that's occurring at 100% speed, low light, um various distractions and other situational factors, it is very, very uh difficult, not impossible, but improbable to execute that. So that is where I decided to focus on uh expanding the company. And here I am uh basically teaching different agencies, getting contracted out by government agencies, um, instructing various levels of uh defensive tactics, firearms training, uh depending on what their needs are.
SPEAKER_00Awesome. Let's talk about just briefly the the realities of the edged weapons environment. Now, when you named the course uh weapons-based grappling, were you specifically talking about edge weapons, or are we also talking about uh close range pistol presence uh presentation and grappling at that point? Or where are you going with that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, uh weapons-based grappling uh is actually a the course was actually developed by Kenny. Um that's actually his baby. And uh so when we ended up training together, um, we collaborate on a lot of things and I'll share a lot of ideas because of our varying backgrounds, him being on the military side with the SEALs and to me on the law enforcement side. So there are different aspects of how we deal with things. And so what we decided to do is build on top of that, but because that is his his project uh that he's known for, um I supplemented that from the law enforcement side uh because our engagement rules are a little bit different than theirs. Um and we have this conversation quite frequent, but the weapons-based grappling uh encompasses various different types of weapons, uh, not just specifically edged or bladed weapons. Awesome.
SPEAKER_00And I kind of assumed that's the direction you were going, but I wanted to clarify because I mean there it is definitely a uh practical skill set that when any weapon is presented, uh pistol or rifle at close range, you know, gaining control of it, ultimately controlling the subject, that kind of stuff. But edged weapons present a very unique challenge in that grappling environment. And I'd like for you to talk to us a little bit more about it. But with a firearm, if I can keep it pointed in a generally safe direction while I'm fighting with this person, uh and the length and size of it also plays a factor here that matters. But with an edge weapon, especially a knife, uh, there are some unique challenges. Talk to us a little bit about that and the uniqueness of grappling in a knife-based weapons environment.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I think, you know, uh first and foremost, when officers are engaged in uh extreme close quarters and we're talking grappling situation, you're right up in the within their armed space. Uh, we see that quite often where officers are hesitant or um they panic, um, they're not confident with the skills, or don't have enough skill set to really tangle with a person up close and personal. Um, and that's just from the unarmed side. So that's why when you start to see officers struggling to control an arm, get arms behind the back, or do a takedown, um, that is one issue. And then them trying to think of different transitions, whether they should disengage, go to CW or whatever option they decide to, um, are all different factors. But then now when you throw in an edge weapon or anything sharp, uh, we already, as people, as we know, when we are when we have cut something and it's usually self-correcting, when we have cut ourselves slicing meat or vegetables, it usually only happens once because we already know, oh, that's what it feels like. It feels hot all of a sudden it won't stop bleeding. Um, and there's already something implanted in us where if that touches my skin, this is what's going to happen. And it's not just going to be one time, it could be multiple times. Um, and it's not just with one hand, it can be switched to the other hand, whether uh intentionally because the person has trained that way, or the person just thought of it. Oh, well, if one my one hand is tied up, why don't I just put it to the other hand? Um, and that's the thing when it comes to knives, when I ask people, like, how many of you were actually taught how to cut meat or vegetables? Um, how many of you were actually taught to swing something? Uh, you just kind of figured it out just by watching. Oh, if I swing this, it's dangerous. If I push forward, it's dangerous. Um, so uh by taking some of that and getting people to understand and respect the blade more, um, it gets it gets them to realize this is a for us as officers, it is a bigger problem than most people think. Because uh, and I don't want to get ahead of uh other questions you may ask, Joe, but uh this also leads into uh issues with training programs, with the lack of uh reality-based training and dynamic drills.
SPEAKER_00Keep going with that because that's actually kind of the direction I'd like to move next in the space. I mean, with an edge weapon, I mean the reality is as you just said, it's it's never gonna jam. It's you know, within its range, it's it's going to inflict some sort of damage. And so any sort of edge weapon, and I I kind of want to pause on that because I I mentioned it as knives specifically, but when you talk about edge weapons, I mean there's a variety of types of edged weapons, everything from uh broken bottles to screwdrivers, right? It's it's all over the space. And so now let's talk about that, taking it into that dynamic training environment and the need for reality-based training. You already mentioned about going to the ground and all of the challenges with that. And a lot of programs kind of orient to that, but there's a a unique requirement when it comes to grappling over a weapon, fighting over any any sort of weapon. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. Not only is there a unique requirement, there's uh there's a very big gap um uh in that space that uh some academies don't want to touch. Um, and it might be because they don't have the uh depth in instructor experience, uh, but also timing, uh, how much time they're allotted to deliver a full program. And of course, if they have to weed out what can we cut out, what can we afford to? Well, let's add more de-escalation or let's add more of this uh in place of that, because that's probably lower probability than what we are actually trying to do, which is de-escalate most situations through uh trying to verbally de-escalate uh incidents. So um, yeah, the edge weapons, uh, I mean, it was coined that, but I mean that can encompass, you know, syringes, scissors, box cutters, uh, ice picks, you name it. Anything that is either pointy or sharp. Uh, you also have various different types of edge weapon lengths, uh, some that might be double-edged, uh, some that will um potentially do more damage. And what I mean by that is because depending on how hard a person slashes or stabs, how sharp the tool is, where they stabbing or slashing at, uh in terms of the victim, um, and how sharp you know everything is. Uh, so when we're talking about these various elements of layers of clothing, um, uh whether it's slashing the Kevlar, and I just released a video uh last week on LinkedIn about what a uh a knife slash can do to a level 3A vest, um, because some people don't actually see, we just talk about it. So I'm trying to give them a visual so that they have more respect for it. That this is not uh stab proof. Um it might be slash resistant uh to an extent, uh, but it is it is just there to mitigate uh any severe injury and to get you out of a situation. It's not there where you can stand and it's gonna protect you the entire time. Um, but yeah, the uh the training as a whole, you know, when at least my experience from uh different agencies that I've worked with and also have been a part of as a participant, um, they don't spend a lot of time. So the one agency that I was going through, um, when I had learned the knife defense program there, they, you know, it was 75 minutes, it was just over an hour. And it only happens once in an officer's career at the recruit level. And uh a lot of that was very static. It was done with a rubber red knife. So basically, officers are just learning how to perform a technique from one angle of attack and how to disengage or transition to um your pistol. That was it. So they don't really get tested on it, nor do they respect it because there's no there's no psychological impact to them. It's just like I got to do this technique, it's not scary enough for me. Um, so so that's one of the biggest issues right now. So that's why whenever we provide training for different agencies, uh, it is often a very separate module because uh I don't believe it's something that can just be done in one hour, let alone three hours. We we're not even scratching the surface. Um, and and like I said, it is a very big gap in many uh agency training programs. Uh, they don't spend enough time on it, but it's there. Uh, you know, that that threat out there is quite present.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, let's let's talk about uh a couple of the realities, and then I'm gonna ask you what can instructors do now? So a couple of the realities first is um, you know, I know you you talked in the beginning about weapons-based grappling can happen standing, kneeling in a vehicle, outside of a vehicle. I mean, I'm throwing a couple extra things in here, but the reality is it happens in all environments, and uh you mentioned early on that unless you train there and you do it often, and even if you do in uh a real law enforcement fight, especially a fight for your life, the ground is not your friend. And so the um uh realities of a um that weapons-based environment, um how fast does it go, and and that sort of thing. Kind of talk us through that just a little bit.
SPEAKER_01Sure. Uh it's super fast, uh, super fast in terms of uh when I first started Filipino martial arts um from my mentor um who had studied uh FMA for quite a long time. Uh we it was a very tailored class for officers. Every Saturday morning, a whole bunch of us from different agencies would go in and bang it out for two hours. And and there were times when, of course, uh Paul, our instructor, when he wasn't there, we would all still go and still practice whatever it was that we had learned the week before. But you know, for us, we would discuss and say, hey, I want you to try attacking me with this overhand ice pick as hard as you can, both either impact weapon or knife, doesn't matter what it is, what it's weapons defense, and just go. So when you take a look at that situation where I've just asked my partner to just hit me as hard as possible, I want to see if I can be able to at speed block that or deflect it and execute some sort of evasion technique or counter and see if I can transition. It was hard. Um, and we are talking about when we start to look at size strength, you know, I'm 5'6, you know, 175 pounds. I'm training with dudes who are 6'3, you know, over 200 pounds. So now we're looking at height discrepancy, we're looking at strength discrepancy, and I'm expected to block this um or deflect it in some form or manner. But right now, my brain says, I know what's happening. What what it what happens if it's an officer who's out on a street who's doing a person stop? They're checking something in a notebook or calling something over the radio, and then the dude all of a sudden blades and then pulls out pulls out a weapon, or a guy from an associate who's standing nearby. We see a lot of this people obstructing um police duties, and all of a sudden attacks from the side. Um, how prepared are we to deal with something like that at full speed? So uh the speed is the one thing where, again, when we take a look at uh the previous training that uh that I was uh part of, speed wasn't even involved in that. It was here's how to do technique, not so much as this is why we're doing it and this is how fast it's going to happen. So officers really don't understand how fast that happens. Um, and they think that, oh yeah, you know, because even the role players, if the role player isn't trained properly in RBT, they they want officers to win the situation. So they're trying to give them a chance to transition or do something to say, yeah, good job. But that's not the reality.
SPEAKER_00So let's talk about another one of those realities that I think absolutely has to be covered as we're talking about this, is the violence of it. Because there we, I mean, we could pull up you know, right now, probably uh a half a dozen videos over the last even year, year and a half of actual caught-on body camera uh knife attacks. And even an untrained, unskilled uh attacker, as you were talking about earlier, just the the person who learned to cut their stake uh knows how to use a knife. The violence when the determined attacker attacks the psychological preparation required on the part of the officer. Talk to me a little bit about that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. The um uh when something happens super fast and officers uh I guess aren't exposed to certain stressors, um, it catches them off guard. It's kind of like um, you know, when we push officers on the range, we tell them no time, take your time, you know, put down five rounds in X amount of seconds, lots of time, good to go. But as soon as we say, hey, we're going to do this in three seconds, all of a sudden there's shots everywhere, shot patterns all over the place, right? Just apply the time constraint. Um, when we take away that time constraint, but apply human movement to that and basically just swarm them, uh, it changes because they're not expecting it. They're expecting this rehearsed movement, me standing in front of them, me seeing this big wind up happening with my arm versus um various distractions and stressors. Um, so and and again, it goes back to that we can we must teach them at the static level so that they at least have a concept, not so much as a technique of what to do, whether it's this or whether it's this. Um, it's just understand the concepts of what are we trying to do here? What is our outcome? However, you get there, understand what the outcome is. It's don't get slashed or stabbed, block it somehow, somehow, and do something. Uh, and then from there is start to incorporate speed, um, start to incorporate dynamics uh such as flash scenarios until we get into the reality-based part where it's now full-blown scenario and all sorts of calls for service and things like that, where now they have to use some sort of cognitive process to decide what am I going to do because now they don't know what's happening. It's not a knife lesson anymore, it's an incident response uh scenario. They just got to deal with whatever's in front of them. Um, and and that that uh ultimately messes with an officer's head. So uh the one agency I was with, uh, all I pretty much did was train recruit officers. So it was really a cookie factory, large classes of recruits just in and out, in and out through the entirety. That's all we did. And we were seeing the same patterns every single class. It was the same response, um, same issues. Uh, and and it's hard to change big machines. Um, that was part of the other problem. Um, but uh, but it also allowed me from the teaching side and how I perceive things oh, these are the most common things that are occurring, these are the most common issues because we would see them in mass numbers happening every single intake. And you know, and we'd spend 18 days with with officers, um, uh specifically on DT and firearms. So yeah, it was it was pretty it was pretty frequent. Um, but you know, timing uh is is something that needs to be uh inserted into training. And as much as some and some instructors might disagree, where all scenarios must be winnable, uh, I think the scenarios just need to be realistic at speed, uh, speed spontaneity, aggression, um, and you know, and that comes from the role players for sure.
SPEAKER_00Right. No, and I mean all scenarios can be winnable, uh, especially when we're talking about uh something as as dynamic and violent as this. Sometimes that survival mindset and uh knowing people personally who have survived those uh incredible that should have died type knife attacks, the um the reality is they are survivable, but I think we have to prepare for the violence required to get us through it. And so, with that, you had mentioned earlier one of the things that you were training was uh that you were required to train by the the lesson plan was uh essentially uh Uh defeat, deflect, maybe control slightly, but uh get to a firearm. Let's talk about the reality of that. That's the the third reality thing I want to check down on with you about. What's the reality of? And we know Dennis Tuller and the Tuller drill, uh the 21-foot quote unquote. You if you're listening to this on podcast, you can't see the air quotes because it's not really a rule or that kind of stuff. But Chris, talk to me about the realities of making space and getting to a gun.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Uh well, making space is is already difficult to begin with when it comes to any sort of subject control. Um, again, if if an officer is not training regularly and understands simple concepts of how to make space or close space to get better control, uh, whatever their objective is, then it makes it harder for them to transition uh to whatever option there is. And and my problem with this is um there are academies and training programs where they are treating a specific response or sorry, a specific stimulus from a subject and then a specific response from an officer. And I'll give you an example for this. Um, in one scenario that I had to go through when I was an auxiliary constable with police service, uh, I had gone through a scenario and the sub in short, the subject was assaultive. He wanted to fight me. I didn't pull out the baton, I went hands-on, and then I failed the scenario because the question was, why did you go to baton? Uh sorry, why did you go empty hands? Why don't you go to baton? I'm going, why? I I was confident to deal with the subject based on my perception and with my skill level to do well. What if the guy's better? Well, then I'd have to figure it out at that point. But at in that moment in time, that was my perception. So the issue with that was we as officers are supposed to be responding based on our personal perception of a situation and totality of circumstances and so forth. But yet we are being programmed that if we see a guy who with his fists up and wants to fight, we go to baton. If a guy pulls out a knife, we go to gun. But what this ends up turning into is now when officers are engaged in, for example, that stand-up clinch and the guy has a knife and they're trying to prevent this person from using against them, they're trying to get to their pistol, which means they have to relinquish some sort of control and transition, right? And that's already hard enough. It's already hard enough to control a strong person who might be under the influence of drugs and alcohol and or mental health crisis sheer determination at that. Right. Yeah, and you have an officer who is not under the influence of all that, trying to process all of this, struggling already with two hands, and now they're trying to transition to one hand in order to get to the pistol to deal with this in close quarters. So this inherently runs into a number of problems because now we are bringing a second weapon into the fight in extreme close quarters. And uh because of the training or lack thereof, uh, this is the large gap that we're talking about. Uh, there's not enough for them to actually deal with situations like that. And this is why we address a lot of this and we're trying to expose more agencies to this type uh because this is the gap that we're trying to fill. Uh, it is not wrong to go to your pistol, but there's a time and place when to go to a specific response option, because the question is, what is the priority right now? Can I compromise going from two-hand control, two-on-one control to transition to something else? Or is there something else I can do, such as maintain two-on-one and separate, create distance, disengage, and then transition to a higher level option? Uh, there's no right or wrong answer, it just depends on what's happening. So that's what we're trying to get them to understand that not only is this the cons the concept level, but now how are we going to integrate this into the training program effectively, not just integrate?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01How does it get implemented effectively so that officers learn it and then they're able to retain it?
SPEAKER_00Awesome. And let's then close with that and see if we can uh kind of start the conversation out there in the rest of the world and uh definitely bring it to Ailita. Is I'm a trainer in an agency, pick a community, pick an academy, wherever it is, and I need to improve my program. I already know this. Um what are some of the things I can begin doing immediately to make my program better when it comes to uh grappling in a weapons-based environment?
SPEAKER_01Um, well, I I'm a big believer in the when it comes to grappling, uh, there has to be more of it. Um and in that grappling, the officers need to actually feel and be tested what it's like to actually grapple with someone who's fully committed. Um here's an example. Hey, let's do a ground defense lesson, let's do a full mount escape. You've got two recruits who know absolutely nothing about ground. Um, even if we use a simple armbar takedown uh as an example, uh, one officer does a takedown, the other guy just flops.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_01So that's not the reality of that, as we all know, uh, because that's why the armbar has failed so many times, and that's why we've had to modify different ways of doing takedowns. When it comes to, let's say, doing the full mountain escape, getting the guy on off on top of me, um, is not just my partner who's going to fall over because I've hooked the leg and trapped an arm and I bridged. Um, it's is there is this person intent on off enough and strong enough to get their arm out from the arm trap, you know, be able to get their leg out from that leg hook and then making it harder for me to actually do a full mount escape. So, you know, they need to be able to feel that so that they understand that just because I do this, it's not 100%.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01Because they may have to do something else or they may have to work harder to get to it and eventually get it. Um, but often, you know, uh, because we're only given two hours, one hour, three and a half hours, whatever it is in the lesson, uh, that's all we're allotted, and we're trying to teach 10 different ways of escapes uh instead of focusing on a few good ones.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, yeah. 10 pounds of stuff in a five-pound bag. I was talking with somebody the other day, and and ultimately the the outcome of the conversation was training should be as realistic as safely possible. And that's what I'm hearing you say as well, right? Within the confines of great risk management and understanding safety is the most important thing. Next stop is realism. Yeah, get as realistic as you can. So, Chris, as much as I I want, I and I really do want to continue this conversation. Um, uh, unfortunately, we're gonna wrap this one up. Although I do want to point this out real quick. Every interview I do, um, you are you and God right here, front and center. Uh that's awesome. Yeah, absolutely. Great picture, great class, and I'm definitely looking forward to seeing you back at the 2026 conference, and I know a lot of other people are as well. Thank you for bringing a unique perspective to this, and I I genuinely uh appreciate your uh your involvement. So um I'm gonna give the last word over to you, and then uh we'll uh yeah, go ahead.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, um, well, you know, for everybody coming to Ailita, whether it's your first time or uh this is your upteenth time, you know, get into something that probably scares you the most or you're most uncomfortable with. So if ground anything ground grappling, weapons-based, anything like that is quite intimidating for you, you know what? Just go in there. There's no judges at ILEDA, at least from my experience. Everybody was totally chill. Everybody just wanted to go in and play and learn from each other and ask questions. So, you know, whether it's that, um, I'm weak at AI and anything of that technology technology stuff. So that's what I'm going to ILEDA for this year, is a lot of the technology-based seminars. But uh, but yeah, just go in there, open mind, and don't worry about making mistakes and messing up on the mats because we're we all started from somewhere and we're all there to learn to help each other out. That's that's what we're doing.
SPEAKER_00Awesome, Chris. Thank you so much for doing this with me today. It's been a great conversation. It could have gone on and on. Yeah, absolutely. You mind sticking around? I got a couple other quick questions for you. For sure, for sure.